Reading the Room on Azar Gat claims
AI-generated, demonstration purposes only, for use as starting pointThis is an example of getting quick context for a claim using SIFT Toolbox. You can look at more of these output files here.
I'll help you analyze this social media post about war in human civilizations. Let me first describe what I see in the image.
The image shows a social media post by Nathan Goldwag (@goldwagnathan.bsky.social) that includes text and a book cover. The text claims that according to Azar Gat, "organized intra-species predation ('war') shows up in every hunter-gatherer or horticultural civilization we have data for" and that "rates of violence are often much, much higher than in agricultural societies or states."
Let me search for more information about Azar Gat's work and the claims made in this post.
Now that I have some information, let me perform a structured analysis of the claims in this post about war in human civilizations.
Generated April 30, 2025, may be out of date if significantly later. AI-Generated: Will likely contain errors; treat this as one input into a human-checked process
Overarching Claim
Moderate version: Hunter-gatherer and horticultural societies had significant levels of organized violence that can be characterized as warfare.
Strong version: Violence rates in hunter-gatherer societies were higher than in agricultural societies and state-organized civilizations, contrary to the popular notion that violence increases with civilization.
✅ Verified Facts Table
| Statement | Status | Clarification & Correction | Confidence (1–5) |
|---|---|---|---|
| "As Azar Gat shows, organized intra-species predation ('war') shows up in every hunter-gatherer or horticultural civilization we have data for." | ✅ Correct | Research confirms that warfare in hunter-gatherers is substantial, with 70% to 90% of hunter-gatherer societies experiencing war either yearly or at least once every five years. ResearchGate | 4 |
| "Rates of violence are often much, much higher than in agricultural societies or states." | ✅ Correct | Various studies indicate that with an estimated 15% mortality rate, the frequency and intensity of hunter-gatherer warfare is greater compared to large-scale sedentary societies. ResearchGate | 4 |
| The book "War in Human Civilization" was published in 2006 | ✅ Correct | This publication date is confirmed by Azar Gat's bibliography. Wikipedia | 5 |
⚠️ Errors and Corrections Table
| Statement | Issue | Correction | Correction Confidence (1–5) |
|---|---|---|---|
| "Azar Gat shows... [warfare] in every hunter-gatherer... civilization" | ❓ Not fully substantiated | The archaeological evidence strongly suggests widespread warfare, but some scholars like Raymond Kelly have argued that less organized, less segmented hunter-gatherer communities may have had different patterns of violence. Wiley Online Library | 3 |
| (Implied) There is complete consensus on hunter-gatherer violence rates | ❓ Not fully substantiated | There is significant scholarly debate between the "deep roots" and "shallow roots" positions on prehistoric violence, with some evidence supporting both perspectives. | 4 |
📌 Corrections Summary:
- Scholarly Consensus: While Azar Gat presents evidence for high rates of violence in hunter-gatherer societies, there remains scholarly debate about prehistoric warfare with competing perspectives from researchers like Raymond Kelly (author of "Warless Societies and the Origin of War"). Wikipedia
- Research Complexity: Archaeological evidence has challenged earlier theories suggesting low violence rates among hunter-gatherers, but debates continue about the nature and universality of warfare in pre-agricultural societies. Wiley Online Library
- Australian Context: One critic notes that Gat's use of Australian Aboriginal societies to counter Kelly's arguments is problematic, as there's evidence many practiced forms of food production beyond simple foraging and had complex social structures. Dreamflesh
📌 Potential Leads:
| Lead | Plausibility | Path for Investigation |
|---|---|---|
| Different types of hunter-gatherer societies may have had different patterns of violence | High | Studies differentiating between types of hunter-gatherer social organization (more/less segmented, more/less mobile) could reveal more nuanced patterns. Wiley Online Library |
| Defining "war" versus other types of violence affects conclusions | High | Some critics note that certain studies may be "lumping what we would currently call murder and domestic violence in with war" which affects comparative analysis. Google |
🛑 Assessment of Source Reliability:
| Source | Usefulness Assessment | Notes | Rating |
|---|---|---|---|
| Azar Gat's academic work | ✅ Highly reliable | Gat is a professor at Tel Aviv University with expertise across multiple disciplines including history, evolution, anthropology, and social sciences. Wikipedia His work is extensively referenced in academic literature. | 5 |
| Academic journals | ✅ Reliable | Peer-reviewed articles from Evolutionary Anthropology and other journals provide strong evidence but represent ongoing scholarly debate. | 4 |
| Wikipedia | ⚠️ Useful starting point | Provides overview of competing theories and references to primary sources but should not be considered definitive. | 3 |
| Dreamflesh blog | ⚠️ Limited reliability | Provides critical analysis but represents personal perspective rather than peer-reviewed research. | 2 |
📗 Revised Summary (Corrected & Accurate):
Azar Gat's book "War in Human Civilization" (2006) presents substantial evidence that organized violence was common in hunter-gatherer societies. Research indicates that 70-90% of hunter-gatherer societies experienced warfare regularly, with estimated mortality rates around 15%, which are higher than those found in more developed agricultural societies. ResearchGate
However, this area remains a subject of scholarly debate. Some researchers support the "deep roots" theory that warfare is an ancient human behavior predating agriculture, while others argue for the "shallow roots" theory that peaceful intergroup relations were more common among certain hunter-gatherer groups. Wikipedia Raymond Kelly and others have suggested that less organized, less segmented hunter-gatherer communities might have experienced different patterns of violence. Wiley Online Library Critics also note methodological challenges in comparing violence rates across different types of societies and time periods.
🏅 Verdict:
Mostly True with important nuances. The post accurately reflects Azar Gat's position that violence rates were often higher in hunter-gatherer societies than in agricultural societies. However, it overstates the scholarly consensus and does not acknowledge the ongoing academic debate about prehistoric warfare patterns and their measurement.
💡 Tip Suggestion:
When evaluating claims about prehistoric human behavior, look for sources that acknowledge competing theories and consider how definitions (such as what counts as "war" versus other forms of violence) affect research conclusions.
Sources table
I'll search for additional sources with varying perspectives on violence and warfare in hunter-gatherer societies versus agricultural societies. Here are four possible search queries I could use:
- Evidence against high violence rates in hunter-gatherer societies
- Scholarly debate hunter-gatherer warfare Steven Pinker Azar Gat
- Archaeological evidence prehistoric warfare mortality rates
- Raymond Kelly Warless Societies critique of deep roots warfare theory
Would you like me to use one of these searches, modify them, or suggest a different approach?
All of it
I'll perform all four searches to create a comprehensive sources table with varying perspectives.
Based on my searches, I'll now create a comprehensive sources table that presents various perspectives on violence and warfare in hunter-gatherer societies versus agricultural societies.
Sources Table on Hunter-Gatherer Violence and Warfare
| Source | Description of Position | Link | Initial Usefulness Rating | Specificity |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Azar Gat, "War in Human Civilization" (2006) | Argues that hunter-gatherers engaged in significant violence, with war being a deep-rooted part of human evolution. Claims hunter-gatherers used violence to steal women, kill competitors, and access resources and territory. Goodreads | Goodreads | 5 | High - Based on extensive cross-cultural analysis |
| Steven Pinker, "The Better Angels of Our Nature" (2011) | Argues that violence has declined throughout human history, with modern state societies being less violent than hunter-gatherer societies when measured as percentage of deaths due to violence. Scientific American | Scientific American | 4 | High - Uses statistical analysis of violence rates |
| Raymond Kelly, "Warless Societies and the Origin of War" (2000) | Distinguishes between warless and warlike hunter-gatherer societies, arguing war is not primordial but arose at a specific point in prehistory. Focuses on social structure rather than innate aggression. Amazon | Amazon | 5 | High - Detailed ethnographic comparison |
| Richard B. Lee, "Hunter-gatherers on the best-seller list" | Critiques Pinker and the "Bellicose School" for overstating hunter-gatherer violence. Argues evidence indicates early humans lived as relatively peaceful hunter-gatherers for 7,000 generations. Emerald | Emerald Insight | 4 | Medium - Focuses on critique of specific authors |
| Vivien G. Standen et al., "Violence in fishing, hunting and gathering societies" (2023) | Based on skeletal evidence from Chile dating back 10,000 years, found that violence was a consistent part of life among hunter-gatherer communities, with rates remaining relatively static over time. ScienceDaily | ScienceDaily | 4 | High - Based on direct archaeological evidence |
| Dean Falk & Charles Hildebolt study (2017) | Challenges Pinker's statistical methods, arguing that when analyzed differently, data suggests humans have evolved to be more violent than chimps, and that nonstate groups are on average no more or less violent than state societies. Scientific American | Scientific American | 3 | Medium - Methodological critique |
| Nataruk massacre study (Mirazón Lahr et al., 2016) | Discovery of 10,000-year-old massacre site in Kenya suggests early evidence of organized warfare among hunter-gatherers, challenging the idea that warfare only emerged with agricultural societies. Cam | University of Cambridge | 5 | High - Direct archaeological evidence |
| Christopher Ryan & Cacilda Jethá, "Sex at Dawn" | Critique Pinker's characterization of hunter-gatherer warfare, arguing that he misrepresents societies like the Yanomami and Gebusi and conflates agricultural/horticultural societies with true hunter-gatherers. A Fistful of Science | A Fistful of Science | 2 | Low - Popular science book with broader focus |
| Larissa Fibiger study on Neolithic violence | Analysis of skeletal remains from early European farmers found that more than one in ten suffered weapon injuries, suggesting endemic levels of violence in early agricultural societies. PNAS | PNAS | 4 | High - Direct archaeological evidence |
| Holger Kissel et al. study | Argues that while general scarcity of evidence from prehistoric periods suggests warfare may not have been common, it does not support the hypothesis that war was absent. Wikipedia | Wikipedia | 3 | Medium - Addresses evidential limitations |
| Our World in Data compilation | Compilation of archaeological and ethnographic evidence showing wide variation in violence levels across prehistoric and non-state societies, rather than a uniform pattern. Our World in Data | Our World in Data | 5 | High - Comprehensive data compilation |
| Anonymous author, "Hunter-gatherers live in relative peace" | Argues that while some hunter-gatherers do fight and kill, most live with less violence than modern societies, suggesting war only emerges when survival depends on controlling specific land. Rewild | Rewild.com | 2 | Low - Blog post with limited citations |
Analysis of Perspectives
After reviewing these sources, several key disagreements become apparent:
- Nature of Hunter-Gatherer Violence:
- Deep Roots Position: Represented by Gat and Pinker, argues that violence and warfare have been constant features of human societies from our earliest evolution, with hunter-gatherers experiencing high rates of violent death.
- Shallow Roots Position: Represented by Kelly and Lee, suggests warfare emerged only with specific social conditions, and many hunter-gatherer societies were "warless" though not necessarily free of all violence.
- Statistical Interpretation:
- Percentage-Based Measurement: Pinker emphasizes that hunter-gatherers had higher percentages of violent deaths compared to modern societies.
- Absolute Numbers Perspective: Critics argue that comparing percentages across vastly different population sizes creates a misleading picture of violence rates.
- Definition of Hunter-Gatherers:
- Broad Definition: Some authors include horticultural and semi-sedentary societies in their definition of hunter-gatherers.
- Narrow Definition: Critics like Ryan and Jethá argue that true nomadic, immediate-return hunter-gatherers (like the Ju/'hoansi) had different patterns of violence than more complex societies that are sometimes called "hunter-gatherers."
- Social Organization Factors:
- Kelly's Segmentation Theory: Raymond Kelly specifically argues that "segmented" societies (with institutions like clans that extend beyond the residential group) engage in warfare, while "unsegmented" societies typically don't.
- Resource Competition Theory: Others emphasize resource competition as the primary driver of warfare.
- Archaeological Evidence Interpretation:
- Evidence of Continuity: Standen's research in Chile suggests consistent violence levels over long periods.
- Evidence of Transition: Kelly's analysis of Upper Paleolithic evidence suggests a transition from warlessness to warfare in specific locations.
The debate continues to evolve as new archaeological evidence is discovered and analyzed, such as the Nataruk massacre site that provides evidence of organized violence among hunter-gatherers 10,000 years ago.